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Post Info TOPIC: US Army Havoc-X


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Date: Apr 15, 2012
US Army Havoc-X
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Back in the 1990s the US Army was devloping surrogates for the then Soviet Hokum & Havoc. The Hokum-X was to use modified Bell AH-1s, pics seen elsewhere in the forum. They also had a plan to modify Sikorsky CH-3s into Mi-28 Havoc look-alikes. There was at least one built but I've never found a pic of it or even a drawing of what it should look like. I can't see a CH-3 being made to look like a Havoc, an SH-3 Sea King maybe, but not a CH-3. Anyway, anyone have any info on Havoc-X?



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Date: Apr 16, 2012
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Interesting. I've never heard of a "Havoc-X" until now. I'd be very interested in seeing this one, if it can be found.



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From the ARC forum...

The H-3 was used for the "Havoc Surrogate" or "Havoc-X" program. That would be 1993-94 timeframe. It was a retired Air Force HH-3 that was modified to simulate an Mi-28, much like the JUH-1H Hind Surrogates at NTC. The picture is of the baseline aircraft, before the mod. It was tested by an Edwards crew at Rucker



-- Edited by Gunship on Monday 16th of April 2012 08:51:44 PM

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Alan Dallas


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Sorry Alan, but the picture you attached clearly shows a Blackhawk, not an HH-3!

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Stargazer2006 wrote:

Sorry Alan, but the picture you attached clearly shows a Blackhawk, not an HH-3!


 

Sorry, wrong picture. Just uploaded the correct one.



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Alan Dallas


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famvburg wrote:

I can't see a CH-3 being made to look like a Havoc, an SH-3 Sea King maybe, but not a CH-3.


 Yeah true but then I can't see a UH-1 being used to simulate a Hind either. aww



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Date: Apr 17, 2012
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I missed the pic of the Blackhawk, which, I guess had it gone into production would've been closer to a Havoc than a stock HH-3 modified. OTOH, I'm sure it would've been as expensive as using the obvious look-a-like, an Apache. 



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That's for sure!



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I recall seeing a pic of a USN or USMC SH-3 (do they operate any Sea Kings?) in a magazine many years ago painted either a dark green or dark gray & may even have had Soviet stars on it being used in some sort of training excercise & it was supposedly being used to simulate a Mi-24.

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Date: Apr 17, 2012
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Some of the Soviet simulators really make me lol.

The notable ones are the UH-1 Hind-X, S-55 Hind-X, AH-1 Hokum-X, Brantly-Hynes H-5T, Ryan 326, and the above mentioned H-3 Havoc-X.

But even funnier are the movie ones... The Super Freelon as an Mi-8 in THe Beast of War, the Puma/Hinds in Red Dawn and Rambo, the RC hinds in Firefox, the Gazelle/Mi-1(?) in Rambo 3, and the most lolzworthy of all, the Sikorsky S-61/Hind in Red Scorpion! :P



-- Edited by Leela25 on Tuesday 17th of April 2012 09:27:10 PM

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Leela25 wrote:

The notable ones are the UH-1 Hind-X, S-55 Hind-X, AH-1 Hokum-X, Brantly-Hynes H-5T, Ryan 326, and the above mentioned H-3 Havoc-X.


 

Don't forget the NSAWC SH-60F Agressors used by the US Navy. Though not really specific as to what Soviet aircraft is playing the role, it's mostly a general simulator for their aircrew escape and evasion courses.



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Leela25 wrote:

 the most lolzworthy of all, the Sikorsky S-61/Hind in Red Scorpion! :P


 I had to do a Google search for this one since I've never seen a movie called "Red Scorpion" before. Now I see the "lolzworthyness" of it.

Worst Soviet helicopter vismod ever fabricated in the history of Cold War-era films. Hands down.



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Date: Apr 17, 2012
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I prefer all of the above instead of CGI fakes we have nowadays. Real helicopters give a film much more production value.



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IIRC, the "Rambo" helo was a Gazelle. I think there may have been an S-76 in it too. I think the "Red Scorpion" Hind was actually an S-62. there were a few articles in the late '80s about the Army's plans for aggressor helo squadrons, like Red Flag & Top Gun stuff. Proposals were for Agusta A-109s, Aerospatiale Dauphins & Cougars, Bell 222s & Sikorsky S-76s, that I recall. There were some concept drawings of the Cougar - Hind & the S-76 - Hind. They were both made up with Hind-D type noses & wings & the Cougar - Hind, like the "Red Dawn" Puma - Hind, looked pretty convincing. The S-76 wasn't far behind. The A-109 photo I recall was a stock A-109 painted in Hind - type camo. The S-55 Hind-X, IMHO, was by far the best mod done tho.  



-- Edited by famvburg on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 05:49:01 PM

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famvburg wrote:

IIRC, the "Rambo" helo was a Gazelle. 


 

You are correct. In fact, we're discussing what Soviet aircraft it was trying to represent over here:

http://stingraysrotorforum.activeboard.com/t36236381/rambo-trilogy/



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As I just posted over there, my guess is that it's supposed to represent a generic 'mean old Soviet helicopter'. :)



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Stingray wrote:


I prefer all of the above instead of CGI fakes we have nowadays. Real helicopters give a film much more production value.


 And just think, now-a-days, the movies can use real, honest-to-goodness Soviet Hinds, Hokums, Havocs, Hips, Hormones, etc., whatever, all for whatever they're willing to rent! 



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famvburg wrote:

Stingray wrote:


I prefer all of the above instead of CGI fakes we have nowadays. Real helicopters give a film much more production value.


 And just think, now-a-days, the movies can use real, honest-to-goodness Soviet Hinds, Hokums, Havocs, Hips, Hormones, etc., whatever, all for whatever they're willing to rent! 


 

You guys are going to just LOVE the movies I'm planning to make. wink

Anyways, I was thinking about that too. I mean, now that we have access to these machines, why can't we make a good 80's-style action movie comeback featuring them? I thought for sure they'd be smart enough to do something like this with the latest Rambo installment, but I was greatly dissapointed! no



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Date: Apr 18, 2012
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Look what I found at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/H-3-HAVOC-surrogate-target-drone/dp/B0006OVGE4

confuse



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Da buck? confuse

Is it a book or a technical report?



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Date: Apr 18, 2012
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It's a technical report... I traced it to the Georgia Tech Library archives.

I just sent an email to them asking if they would let us have scans of the material.



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Date: Apr 19, 2012
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Thanks for all of this! I use Yahoo as my search & it wouldn't pull it up, but I switched to Google & it took me to the Amazon link. I was so disappointed to see it wasn't available. I was going to contact my local library & there's also a US Gov't facility here that I was going to contact. I'll wait & see how your request turns out.



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Bad news. I just got a reply back, and it seems the report has a "confidential" restriction, which means that even if I were to personally go there for it, they wouldn't even let me leave with copies of it due to it not being entirely unclassified.

Sorry. cry



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Date: Apr 19, 2012
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However, for some lighter news, feast your eyes on THIS!! wink

(in a more general tech report on the surrogate aircraft)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b148401.pdf



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Date: Apr 20, 2012
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Stingray wrote:

However, for some lighter news, feast your eyes on THIS!! wink

(in a more general tech report on the surrogate aircraft)

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b148401.pdf


 Now that's just great! I'll have to print it off to read it, but not only is this the first time I've ever heard of the H-3 being modded for a Hind, it's definitely the first time seeing it too! Based on this, I have an idea as to how the Havoc-X would look now. Thanks!



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Date: Apr 20, 2012
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Stingray wrote:

Bad news. I just got a reply back, and it seems the report has a "confidential" restriction, which means that even if I were to personally go there for it, they wouldn't even let me leave with copies of it due to it not being entirely unclassified.

Sorry. cry


 Hmm, maybe I'll check with the local aforementioned US Gov't facility here & see if I can have any luck. Probably not, but it'll be worth a try maybe. I guess that explains why Amazon doesn't have it. Thanks.



-- Edited by famvburg on Friday 20th of April 2012 05:52:55 PM

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Gunship wrote:
Stargazer2006 wrote:

Sorry Alan, but the picture you attached clearly shows a Blackhawk, not an HH-3!


Sorry, wrong picture. Just uploaded the correct one.


 Please note that the page you must have taken the pics from doesn't specify that this particular H-3 was the one used as a surrogate Soviet helo, just that it depicts that general type...

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=200876&st=100



-- Edited by Stargazer2006 on Friday 20th of April 2012 01:30:21 PM

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Date: Apr 22, 2012
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Leela25 wrote:

Some of the Soviet simulators really make me lol.

The notable ones are the UH-1 Hind-X, S-55 Hind-X, AH-1 Hokum-X, Brantly-Hynes H-5T, Ryan 326, and the above mentioned H-3 Havoc-X.

But even funnier are the movie ones... The Super Freelon as an Mi-8 in THe Beast of War, the Puma/Hinds in Red Dawn and Rambo, the RC hinds in Firefox, the Gazelle/Mi-1(?) in Rambo 3, and the most lolzworthy of all, the Sikorsky S-61/Hind in Red Scorpion! :P


-- Edited by Leela25 on Tuesday 17th of April 2012 09:27:10 PM


 

 I just happened to remember. The Hinds used in "Firefox" were modified RC Bell 222s. There was an article back in the early '80s in a RC magazine about, IIRC, "Blue Thunder" & there was mention of the Bell 222 models that were converted to Hinds for "Firefox". All in all, I don't think they were too bad so my guess is that full size 222s wouldn't be too bad except for the 2 blade rotor.



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famvburg wrote:
 All in all, I don't think they were too bad so my guess is that full size 222s wouldn't be too bad except for the 2 blade rotor.

 

Then we have the equivelant Bell 230 with 4 blades. Still missing one blade, but still a bit more convincing IMO. ;)



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I find this topic quite interesting.

So apart from the Hokum-X, which we know was a joint venture between Bell and Bristol Aerospace, who were the other ones developed by? And what, if any, designations were they assigned (the Hokum-X was the QAH-1S).

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